Episode 18

What can companies learn from agile software development teams?

"And it's about not judging mistakes and learning from mistakes. And that's what agile teams do."

 

Note: This Podcast is exclusively avaliable in german. 

Hello and welcome back to our podcast. Today we have a very special episode for you. We are back with our video format. If you joined us for our first season, then you know our host today, consistec CEO, Doctor Thomas Sinnwell. He will be hosting this episode and has invited a great interviewee, Iris Clermont. Ms Clermont has been internationally active in coaching and consulting for 25 years. She is also the author of the book Team Magic. The topic of today's round: agile software development teams and what companies can learn from them. Exciting topics and an exciting conversation.

Have fun listening!

 

Transcription. 

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Welcome to our new episode. Today I would like to talk about, what companies can learn from agile software development teams, with my guest Iris Clermont. In episode seven, yes, episode seven it was of our first season, we already had the topic of agile software development. We talked about agile development methods, the idea behind them and typical technical tools. Today, thanks to my guest Iris, we can take a much broader look beyond the technician's plate. Welcome, Iris.

 

Iris Clermont: Thank you very much for the invitation. I am delighted to be here.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Good to have you here. Yes, my statement has probably made one or two listeners curious about who Iris Clermont is. Yes, I met the mathematician and very ambitious and professional hobby musician, who now works as a coach, if I remember correctly, in 1999, can that be?

 

Iris Clermont: Maybe.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Well, anyway, at that time you were working for Nokia, I was working for T-Mobile and together we dealt with-, yes, the introduction of the indication and the acceptance of a wireless access protocol, I remember it, which goes via PIOS.

 

Iris Clermont: Yes, which wasn't so hype back then, was it?

 

Thomas Sinnwell: No. But very nice project and without that project we probably wouldn't have met at all. Yes. Iris, please be so kind and introduce yourself briefly to our listeners.

 

Iris Clermont: Yes, I started at Ericsson after my studies as one of the dinosaurs, who was one of the first 16 software developers to co-design the GSM network. Then two years later I started at Nokia, where we met, and was on the road worldwide as a business consultant, as a project manager, and then in 2008 I took the leap into freelancing, also as a consultant and as a coach, focussing on teams, as a business coach, and already accompanied this agile working world at that time, at Ericsson it was already there at the start. And now I'm helping to implement them in the transformation towards agile companies.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, that's super exciting and now I have a real coach sitting there and I would like to get curious on behalf of the listeners, when do you ever have the chance to exchange ideas with a coach? And especially with someone who works for very well-known clients in the telecommunications or medical sector. What does a coach do?

 

Iris Clermont: Yes, sometimes I ask myself the same question and then I think of the coach, the bus that takes people from A to B. And a coach comes to mind-, I was once in New York, I entered the country and then I said I was a coach and then they immediately said: ah, football coach. And it's not that far off, because it's about people developing and having a goal, but not knowing exactly how to get there. Especially with teams, many things play a role. And to be open, to listen as a counterpart, to ask questions, not: Ah, I know something better, that's what a consultant does, but rather to listen and to ask exactly the right questions that bring transparency and clarity to the opposite side, in order to reach a bigger goal.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: And how do people find you or your people? When a listener says: Oh actually, I should be able to exchange ideas with someone in order to find my way.

 

Iris Clermont: Yes, I think individuals tend to come to my colleagues, there is an international coaching facilitation page, I think many come to individuals through this or through references, because you have really made a difference and word gets around. That's a-, not a push, but a pull. People have heard, ah, this has really helped me, this has improved my results, a coach could help me. I would like to have that too, that fits and then you get into a first conversation.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, now in your professional career you have developed a way from very intensive technology, I would say towards leadership, towards people, towards organisations. And what were your motives for this?

 

Iris Clermont: The motivation was that I was fascinated by a team, where we were worked together virtually and we really achieved something. And I was always interested in what makes a great team work and what are key point where teams fail or have problems? What is the difference? What does the leader bring to the table? And so I kept moving in that direction.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: We talked about agile software development in episode seven of our series "Cross-linked - Technology outside the box" and looked at the basic principles. For those who haven't heard episode seven, I'd like to recommend it. To make it a little easier for us later, I would like to highlight a few points from the episode again and I hope that this will help our listeners and answer the central question of our podcast. That sounds very customer-oriented now, but the reason, the actual reason, is that many people have come to the realisation that it is very difficult to completely and unambiguously record the requirements of different user groups for the software to be created and the non-functional requirements in advance. Yes, this constant comparison is made possible by proceeding iteratively, step by step. Customers then try out the current status of the software at a very early stage and at short intervals, typically every two to three weeks. Yes, the testing works in the form of a so-called "demonstration" and this "demonstration" is usually part of a so-called "sprint review". Yes, beyond the testing by the customer, the sprint review also checks whether there is room for optimisation in the development process and in the prioritisation or design of functions or function blocks. If optimisation possibilities are identified in such a review, then the procedure is adapted. And that is called "Adapt". And this "Inspect and Adapt", that is a core concept of agile software development. Another core concept is transparency. The reason for this is simple. Only through a high degree of transparency do problems become clearly visible, thus laying the foundation for improvements in the process and in the team. That was probably a bit abstract due to the compactness. But we will come back to it. Iris, how does agility work for you and your clients?

 

Iris Clermont: Well, it starts, so to speak, when I enter a project with the target idea that the client has. And then I create transparency by saying: OK, let's do a 360-degree view, let's do Leadership Excellence-, that is, a real view within the department or the area and outside the area through interviews, through surveys-, so that afterwards we have a completely transparent picture. Where does everyone stand? What do the users or the customers see, if we have any? Where do they think, can this area develop and is it precisely this transparent picture that I give back to the client or the project? Then we decide together where the journey should go. And in the background, of course, is this agile manifesto, which ultimately has a lot of wisdom behind it and basic fundamental ideas that have not developed from scratch, but simply common sense, what is important, what do we include, why continuous development? Of course, when I look at the agile manifesto, it is software-specific. There are also some terminologies in there, pairing, what software developers do that you can't transfer to other areas.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, exactly. There are undoubtedly a few special cases in agile software development. At the same time, from my point of view, you can highlight some aspects of the agile manifesto when it comes to that-, or when it comes to the topic of agile business management or agile teams in general. Yes, for all listeners who don't know what the term agile manifesto means: No, it's not by Marx and Engels. Jokes aside, it really has nothing to do with a political manifesto, rather it is about a, shall I say, value system that employees of a company or even a project agree on and it is about the agreement or the definition of foundations for the joint work. One of these foundations is, for example, that people and their interactions are always more important than processes and tools. Another foundation is that good and functioning software is always more important than meticulous and perhaps exuberant or perfectly formed documentation. Now this does not mean that nothing needs to be documented. It means that the function and the quality of the software are in the foreground and the documentation, which of course has its right to exist, is more balanced. The central foundation is certainly that the customer is at the centre. Then I come to my favourite foundation, the last and the fourth and this is of great importance in my function or in my role as managing director of constitec: we welcome change. Yes, that means that we don't simply ignore or fade out changes that always take place, but accept them, especially in management, and help to adapt our procedures. That was important to me, that these aspects of the Manifesto should be considered again in a complementary way. And now I would like to slowly build a bridge to our topic and software development teams also play a role here, you have already developed software yourself, what do you find exciting about agile software development or what fascinates you about it?

 

Iris Clermont: What fascinates me about agile software development is that, especially in the companies I've been to, a lot of them have already started with agile development and what I've seen is that people aren't told what they have to do, but rather the goals are defined and the teams can contribute their own expertise. That's one thing, but of course it doesn't suit everyone. There are also people who say: No, give me a list that I work off and that's what I need. But most people think differently, and today's young people think differently. They don't want to be told everything. And that fascinated me, plus that there are these kinds of demos where you show where you're going.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, you raise an important point. Demonstrations are something very important and a demonstration is not a presentation. So how can you explain the difference? When I go to buy a car, then I can look at a presentation-, the car is presented to me, maybe I get a nice flyer to take home and it's a super car. At a demonstration it would be different, the salesman would give me the key and say: Try it out and see if you like the car. A demonstration is a very decisive element. And yes, what also happens in this demonstration is a high degree of transparency, I can simply try it out. I don't have to believe some brochure and find out, is this the car I want? So transparency is again a very important point.

 

Iris Clermont: Exactly, transparency is definitely a key area, because if no one knows where we're going, then the developers develop in their own space, but if it's not transparent, where we're going, so to speak, then everyone gets confused. And that's how it developed: let's define exactly what we want to have. And let's do it together at eye level and let's look at it regularly to see what we have achieved. And then a software development team is also very proud of what they have achieved and can adapt it in regular intervals.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: And if I now think one step further, what do you think is particularly important for companies when they set out to build agile structures, to become an agile company?

 

Iris Clermont: If they get out of this "waterfall structure", so to speak, we have a project manager on board, but are unhappy that the project managers always have green lights until shortly before the end, then they change to red lights and then they look for the "guilty" party.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, maybe orange for a fortnight and then-.

 

Iris Clermont: Exactly, that's right. Two weeks of orange and then they're just looking for the guilty party. And then I always ask, what's the point?

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, isn't that a bad term: "guilty"?

 

Iris Clermont: "The guilty" ultimately has no place in business, has nothing to do with error culture. And when I hear the word blame, I always say that we are not in church and even there we don't talk about blame, we don't want to punish someone, there is no corruption in the room and this is business. And it's about not judging mistakes and learning from them. And that's what agile teams do. And that's what the demos are for, in combination with definition of excellence, because-.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Then just define what that actually is. We've mentioned it a few times and maybe not everyone knows what it means.

 

Iris Clermont: Exactly. You invite the customers or users to a demo and you have planned the goals in the sprint planning beforehand, so to speak, that's what I want to achieve. And as a coach I always ask the question, what do I see in the demo? Because then you can define that very clearly and that's what I see at the end.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, we have already addressed many aspects that play a role in the context of an agile company. Now I would like to get to the heart of the matter for our listeners and take a look at which topics from the agile software development world or ultimately what agile software development teams do, which topics are particularly relevant for the agile company?

 

Iris Clermont: What teams, so to speak, where they are developing, what is needed, key enablers, so to speak? Are a culture of error, which you need-.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes. We have already said that in many cases people are still looking for someone to blame. And that's the opposite, it's about learning from mistakes.

 

Iris Clermont: Yes. And then you focus on that and ask the questions so that this culture of mistakes becomes stronger and stronger, because you can't get rid of that with a flick of the wrist.

 

Thomas Sinnwell Yes. The wording has to change and I believe that as a coach you can make a big difference and help people who change their vocabulary or the way they ask questions.

 

Iris Clermont: And then you notice that they take it over themselves and then one of the team asks, no, let's get away from this quagmire, who is the culprit, to what could a solution look like? And then you have a completely different atmosphere in the team. And the other thing is to have this freedom to make decisions.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Establishing responsibility yourself.

 

Iris Clermont: Then it's personal responsibility. Yes, exactly. And also in the head: No, it's no longer the

entrepreneur or the managing director, but you carry it. You show, so to speak, that you are responsible for setting the right focus.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: I have seen that a lot. With us it's-, sales is a corporate task. There are so many developers who get involved and when they can demonstrate something they have built themselves, something the customer wanted, and then see the customer's reaction, that is simply wonderful. And yes, it's impossible to put a price on the motivation it brings. Yes, I think we have now looked at many exciting aspects that are needed for an agile company. From my point of view, there is one topic that we have not yet addressed. And that is the topic of change management, because we talked about transformation, something changes and then, in my experience, the human factor always comes into play. What is your experience there?

 

Iris Clermont: Yes, something has changed with you too, just intuitively and naturally.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: And in the team. And everyone had the same objective. And everyone-, I mean, I was one of the first people to be certified and this topic of agile development was also pushed quite massively by our management, which isn't often the case. The developers have to fight for it and in the end it is never really supported by the board level, the management. That was different with us, because it's simply convincing when you get involved in it, it's simply a great way to bring technical products to the market.

 

Iris Clermont: And then change brings something, because when it is clear why we are doing what and what change and why now?

 

Thomas Sinnwell: And that's what I think, maybe that's also a role you have as a coach, to help companies explain these goals.

 

Iris Clermont: And also to make them transparent so that they are really visible to everyone.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes. Now I think we have the most important points that you need to look at and deal with if you want to transform your company into an agile company.

 

Iris Clermont: May I ask you briefly in between, how was it for you when you came from the, I'm the entrepreneur, the CEO, I'm the one who has the say, to agile teams, to the teams can have a lot of say themselves, how was that for you, the turnaround?

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, to be quite honest, Iris, I didn't feel disempowered at any time, which is perhaps one of the basic problems or fears of people who are now embarking on such an agile path. For me, it was simply incredibly enriching, because as an individual, I can't master the technical diversity that we have in our products in such depth in all areas. I have so many focal points where I can still set impulses myself, and in many things my colleagues are much better than I am, thank God. And that is an enrichment. Many great people contribute their knowledge, their expertise, their commitment, and then a really great story comes out. And it's not as if it happens somehow, completely without control. In the end, you have a planning meeting in the sprint events, the product owner is there, it's about bringing the company goals into it and then there's the review, what have we achieved and it's not about catching the culprits, but about finding out, for example, if a team's performance has dropped, what was the fault? Then it's a question of can we eliminate the disruption or do we have to live with it? And then we have to adjust the team performance in the planning. And in this respect I find it super transparent, it's even much more transparent than software development before, then-, we want to build it, then there was the estimate from the software development manager, the big thumb estimate, takes six months. That could be done in three months and if it didn't go well, in twelve months.

 

Iris Clermont: Yes, you are much more honest on the road.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: And now it's really broken down to small parts that you can estimate seriously, it's so transparent that there are actually no surprises any more. And it is much easier to plan, control and monitor. So I think it's a perfect approach, for me personally, for my nature perfect approach.

 

Iris Clermont: I'm really happy to hear that! Most managers don't mind letting go of their inner alpha dog, but are really happy that the experts have added their value.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, definitely.

 

Iris Clermont: And then you don't necessarily need a coach on top in a company, then it just works, because of course it works. Where you need one is when you have product owners or managers who then go back to: Yes, but why can't everything be done in the next 14 days? And then the coach is the one who says: OK, you can't do everything side by side because you don't have an infinite number of resources. If you had an infinite number of resources, you would no longer be profitable on the market. And you say: OK, but if you prioritise, then let's see what is really feasible? And until that really gets into people's heads, that's how long a coach helps on the way.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Yes, absolutely. Yes, then I think we've covered that quite comprehensively. I would love to hear your personal top tip as a professional for managers who are ultimately supposed to accompany the agile path in companies.

 

Iris Clermont Unfortunately, I can't formulate it as one.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: Okay, two will do.

 

Iris Clermont: There are simply a few aspects that are included in the manifesto, in the agile manifesto as a different counterpart. On the one hand, there's the inspiration and on the other hand, there's the clear formulation of the definition of excellence. You have the, yes, Inspirative coach part, so to speak, to develop your employees. And that is one of the most important things, those are the key pillars.

 

Thomas Sinnwell Yes, Iris. Then we have already reached the end. Thank you very much for your contribution to these really valuable impulses. Thank you very much for carving out so much time in your busy schedule.

 

Iris Clermont: Yes, thank you very much to you too. It gave me more insight into how important trust is as well.

 

Thomas Sinnwell: I had a lot of fun, I'm looking forward to the next episode in the series "Querverlinkt - Technik über den Tellerrand". Bye.

 

Iris Clermont: Good luck to all who listen. Bye.

 

 

So, that's it from us again. We hope you enjoyed the episode and that you were able to learn something about the wonderful world of coaching and agile corporate culture. Further links to the current episode can be found in the show notes. And if you were interested in today's topic, you can find more videos on our YouTube channel and our LinkedIn. The next episode will be out on April 7th and we will be back with our in- house softwaredevelopers again. Until then, have a good time and stay healthy.

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